Almost Quit . . .

BTW, I just noticed that you mentioned you pressure washed LR. This should increase nitrate as it will likely kill off some denitrifying bacteria living in it. So don't do that.

 

sorry it took so long getting back H.R. it's and old canon g-4 with a 3-set of close up len's





i don't know if the pic is up but,if it is,it's my wife's 24g nano the only test I have run on it is ph meter and salinity with a c scope. there's also 3 fish in there hiding in the rock,it has a deep sand bed and a sponge filter it's 3years old at the time this pic was taken. she does a 3g water change every two weeks vuccums the sand olny if needed the tank is 10 years old now and looks even better. We have 5 tanks now with 100+ coral living and striving. and the same test is run on them if i run a nitrate test I bet it would be high? but if it is so what i say, nothing is dying and its growing good. my 220g is 18 years old and thriving no nitrate test has been done on it or none of my tanks. so I hope this will help ease the minds that worry about nitrate,in 20 years i've had no problems with it .hs James

 

James - you're my hero . . . lol.
That's some crazy s**t!
5 thriving tanks no nitrate tests . . . i'm so taken by your philosophy of "if it looks good, it is good". I suppose it's a testament to the way you set up the system initially then maintain it.
Me . . . i've struggled for years . . . even tehn things looked good, specimens still died.
Eventually leading to the bubble algae plague that almost did me in ( and is rearing it's head again).
M2434 - regarding Denitrifing Bacteria being pressure cleaned off . . . how would anaerobic bacteria survive on the surface of the rock? I always pictured them within the rock . . . perhaps within 1mm of the pores of the rock. Do you think aerobic conditions would lie in crevices of rock? I've never read anything specific about this.
Anyway . . . it was a gamble i was willing to take and may again if the bubbles plague again unless you convince me otherwise
Cheers to all of ya for your input . . . i really appreciate the advice and support.
Mark

 

The reason you probably have not read about it is that bacterial ecosystems are extremely complex and difficult to comprehend. There are not just a few types of bacteria working individually; there are vast populations of various organisms working with and against each other for survival. Small changes in the environmental parameters drastically disrupt these relationships and change the fundamental workings of this community.

I'll try to briefly describe some of the workings of these systems, to the best of my ability. I am not however a microbiologist, however, do have significant training in various biological and other scientific disciplines. These workings however, are very complex and in many ways I will probably butcher some points. However, I can assure you, the fundamental ideas presented here are well documented and at least on a macroscopic scale, reasonably well understood.

First, the desirable anaerobic bacteria in our systems are referred to as facultative anaerobic bacteria. There are also a group of anaerobic bacteria called obligate anaerobic bacteria, but these are not desirable due to certain byproducts such as hydrogen sulfide, which is highly toxic.

Facultative anaerobes generate energy from aerobic respiration when there is oxygen, but if oxygen is not present can use other sources as an electron donor, such as nitrate. This reduction of nitrate makes them the denitrification workhorses of our systems.

Obligate anaerobic bacteria on the other hand require a truly oxygen free environment. Within these two classifications, there are a tremendous number of species. Different species will thrive under different environmental conditions.

Likewise, on the surface of the rock, in the sand etc... there are all sorts of various bacteria. Some are chemoautotrohpic (reduce inorganic nutrients to obtain energy), others are chemoheterotropic (reduce organic compounds to obtain energy), some are autotrophic (produce organic compounds from light and inorganic compounds). There are diazotrophic (can fix nitrogen), cyanobacteria (an autotrophic prokaryotes), algae, archaea, animal larvae and so on. All compete for surface space and nutrients to live and grow. On a side note: there are not just Nitrosomonas and nitrobacter, there is a tremendous array of species capable of nitrification, as there are for denitrification. The species that thrive are very dependent on very specific the specific environmental parameters.

These various organisms are not all independent either. To colonize any surface, a series of events must take place. First, the surface must be conditioned. This is accomplished by depositing various biological compounds, such as proteins, polysaccharides, etc... This coating allows bacteria to attach and the composition is highly dependent on the exact surface properties. Once the bacteria colonizes, it starts to produce a bacterial biofilm. From there, a matrix of biological organic molecules called an extracellular polymeric substances is created (EPS). EPS serves as a medium for attachment of organisms and signaling between organisms and as a regulatory network for further biofilm development. The organism work together, utilizing this film, to communicate so that various organisms can be recruited, to occupy specific nitches within this microenvironment. Actually, not only recruitment, but the EPS can signal organisms to change gene-expression patterns and phenotypes based on very specific environmental parameters. This is followed by secondary colonization by other organisms, such as diatoms and other single cellular eukaryotes and finally multicultural Eukaryotes. Some organisms even produce chemical defenses to inhibit the attachment of certain other organisms.

The point is, there is a mind-boggling complex web of organisms, competing for space, trying to survive. These organisms, work together with other organisms and sharing resources with those that are beneficial to their health and working against those with are detrimental to their well-being.

The balance however is extremely delicate. any perturbation of the environment can have drastic consequences. What you fail to understand is that the denitrifying bacteria is not alone. Through proximity associations with other organisms, required products such as nitrate are passed to them and provide them with an environment that allows them to exist. Without these relationships they could not exist.

When you do something, such as scrub the rock, or go so far as to powerwash the rock, you disrupt this environment. and likely make it uninhabitable for many organisms involved in this complex web. Heck, it doesn’t even take something that drastic, the EPS is so sensitive, scientists have trouble studying it, because any small change makes substantial differences, making reproduction of lab results extremely difficult.


If you kill of microbes on the surface, or if you disrupt the environment in the pores, you will likely shift the competitive advantage to a different group of organisms. This will likely sends a cascade of events through the environment shifting the dominant populations and destabilizing the system. For example, perhaps you will kill off some facultative anaerobes, making way for obligate anaerobes. Perhaps this increases the hydrogen-sulfide content of the system, leading to more die-off and destabilization and more nitrate, nitrite, ammonia etc... This particular example is speculation, however, it is not speculation that destabilization will occur.

Well, hopefully I was able to convince you. In all due respect, and I mean this in the most helpful intent possible, it was not a gamble, it was reef suicide. Without a doubt, you destabalized your microbilological eccosystem, making it inhabitable for desirable organisms, not more inhabitable.

Sure thing, Good luck :thumb_up:

 

That's the most specific and detailed explanation i've read, thanks for taking the time to spell that all out for me.

Question: Provided i get my chemistry right . . . will the Red Bubble Algae (Botryocladia) starve out or recede? It's really spreading, i'm considering reducing the photoperiod to 6 hours as i believe that it is taking advantage of the light and nutrients.
-stock image

Also, should i introduce a new set of bacteria via "Bio Support" -bacteria in a bottle? Can bacteria get inbred? Seems silly to me as they are simple organisms - relatively.

 

Sure, thing. I'm all for less technology, more biology, but to be successful with a mini-biological eccosystem, you need to understand some of the biology. We all talk about stability, but don't often think about what that means. It's not just that our corals like stability, it is that within the biofilm on our liverock and throughout our system, there is a complex web of organisms, that will only stabilize after the system reaches an equilibrium. Such things as bacteria in a bottle, may help with the initial ammonia cycle, but a mature tank is much more than ammonia, nitrite and nitrate. Think about the statement:

"Facultative anaerobes generate energy from aerobic respiration when there is oxygen, but if oxygen is not present can use other sources as an electron donor, such as nitrate"

The desirable denitrifying bacteria prefer O2. If there is a void, because the tank is new and the biofilm has not been established, or because the rock is powerwashed, the facultative anaerobes can survive in the aeorobic zones, in fact, they prefer it. It's only after the biofilm is established and other organisms out compete them for resources, and organisms which may supply them with necessary products establish themselves, that the facultative anaerobes start to thrive in the low-oxygen pores of the rock and sand.

Live rock isn't live rock because there is some bacteria living on it. It is liverock, because the biofilms and EPS serve as a living entity, tying all living organisms together, signaling certain desirable, or undesirable environmental conditions, resulting in a ongoing chain of mutual interaction, competition, predation and stable colonization. Even something as simple as allowing detritus to accumulate and then removing it after some time shifts the dynamics of the system. Certain organisms thrive on and around that detritus and when you remove it, you displace them. Others around them are dependent on them and are now also disrupted. So, instead of allowing detritus to accumulate and then removing it suddenly, we need to prevent it from accumulating to significant levels in the first place. On a side note: my list of efforts to reduce nitrate are intended to be good husbandry practices that promote stability.

So, when someone says, something like, "your tank needs to be six months old to support sensitive inverts" This is why. Even to establish a significant population of facultative anerobes within the low-O2 pores, can likely take months. This is why nitrate can build in a new tank. When you distrub the biofilm, you can reset this process. However, the process isn't complete with facultative anaerobes, once they are established, they change the environment, making it less inhabitable for other organisms, and more inhabitable for others, so, again the balance changes. When these changes slow significantly, you have a healthy, mature tank



As for the bubble algae, luckily others, have written about this in detail. So I'll leave it to them:
'Bubble' Alage: Selected Descriptions, Controls and Comments by Horge Cortes-Jorge, Jr. - Reefkeeping.com

 

New Tests

Okay . . . i did a water change and let it settle for a few hours and then more tests. They seem more believable.

(i did stop at a LFS but they used test strips, so i don't have faith in their reading of 60 Nitrate - i'll go to another soon and order a better kit.)

KH - 7
Calc - 340
Mag - 1450
PH - 8.3

Phos - 2.0
Nitrate - 100

I still have my doubts on the Nitrate test, but there was significant detritus buzzing around when i rearranged the rock - my eel is being a 'rabble rouser'. I thought the rock placement was perfect but he insists on digging under some of the foundation to get more hidden; turned out to be quite a project getting all the pieces to fit; i removed 2 large pieces of rock (one almost completely covered with gorgonian mat- any tips on stemming it's spread?).

I used some salt mix (coralife) that came with the craig's list purchase - it never got clear and i was a bit concerned as it may have been 10 years old. I figured minerals don't go bad and wouldn't soak up any ill elements in sealed bags, so i threw caution to the wind. Took a while to clear up, but all good now.

Finally got the skin and trim on the stand . . . i'll post pictures tomorrow.

Also . . . Coraline, thanks for mentioning the ATS. I did look into it and am sold and excited to give it a go. I really wish i had read up on that before started this swap. I hope to have the first incarnation up by mid week - along with my ato (i ran the 1/4" tubing and lamp cord through the attic - whew 115 degrees in that attic, glad that's done!)

 

Update -
I'm having trouble with the "take is slow and let it grow philosophy."
It's been one month and my Nitrates remain over 100.

Post tank migration i've done the following:
-at 2 weeks i had to alter the aquascape as the eel was making some rocks move.
-after that i did a 40 gallon water change
-at 3 weeks i drank the ATS kool-aid and installed an Algae Turf Scrubber
-at 4 weeks i cleaned the screen (possibly too much- currently dark brown - even after seeding with GHA)

Everything looks healthy! Shouldn't they be goners?
IMO only the button polyps don't look perfect.
Red bubble algae, after growing rapidly, has halted it's march to take over all open real estate.
I'm starting to see gas bubbles in the DSB that doesn't regularly get disturbed by the dragon wrasse.

LFS convinced me to remove the Deep Sand Bed & do 2 major water changes (44gal) removing 1/3 of the bed each time.
My wife thinks i'm crazy . . . everything looks good, leave it alone.
Maybe i need to be talked down . . .
ATS people?
Whatchyathink?
Am i just impatient?

this is my current 'Frankenstein' as i call it:

everything seems to be doing well despite Nitrate over 100