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Discussion in 'Water Chemistry' started by NASAGeek, Jan 18, 2010.

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  1. NASAGeek

    NASAGeek Eyelash Blennie

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    Any way, my NASA background leads me to fault detection, isolation and recovery scenarios for my reef aquarium.

    Fault Detection... water measurement is outside of nominal range...
    Isolation... what do I do to isolate the cause of the problem?
    Recovery... what do I do to fix the situation??

    Detection... SG too low...
    Isolation is a no brainer... I think... not enough salt.
    Recovery... what is the right procedure for raising the SG?

    That thought process leads to some interesting discoveries.

    For example,
    Detection... Calcium is too low...
    Isolation... I learned earlier today that if your Mg is too low, it can cause your Ca to drop. Thus, in order to isolate the cause of your Ca being low, you need to test your Mg. If Mg is normal, then add Ca. If not, recover Mg first, then address Ca.
    Recovery... This gets into proper procedure to add and not cause undo swings in pH, etc. Two-part versus reactor, versus manual dosing would have difference procedures.

    Am I making sense?? Maybe I am going "too NASA" but it helps me to walk through with that process to understand it all and the inter-relationships.

    Just trying to learn and thought I might be able to produce something helpful to everyone.

    Mark
     
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  3. NASAGeek

    NASAGeek Eyelash Blennie

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    MissionSix,

    Those articles don't talk about the isolation, recovery aspects that I am looking for. I want to build that up here.

    Mark
     
  4. Screwtape

    Screwtape Tonozukai Fairy Wrasse

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    I think it's a great idea, especially your "isolation" and "recovery" stages, if you can work it out. There is a lot of information out there about this type of stuff. Just make sure you read all of Randy Holmes-Farley's articles on reefkeeping.com. I think you'll find probably 75% of your answers to most chemistry questions in those articles.
    Reefkeeping Online Magazine - Randy Holmes-Farley
     
  5. missionsix

    missionsix Super Moderator Staff Member

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    In essence, we already have a sticky here that you speak of. I can edit info to that thread as I mentioned earlier. If you think you can replace my thread with a better one, tear it up;). And if I am mis-understanding what it is you are trying to get across to me, let me know.
     
  6. NASAGeek

    NASAGeek Eyelash Blennie

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    Let me work through it and see what you think. At the very least it is helping me learn and gain confidence in that knowledge. For example, right now my Parameters are as follows:

    Temp 78.8
    pH 8.06
    SG 1.024
    Mg 1350
    Ca 420
    dKH 9
    PO4 0.0
    Nitrate 0.0
    Nitrite 0.1
    Ammonia 0.125

    So, if my Calcium, Magnesium and DKH are "in the zones", why is my pH low?? Should I care and if I did what would I do about it?

    I am going to lower my temp based on this learning exercise, but I am trying to understand the dynamics and what inter-relates.

    Thanks for baring with me. If it ends up a sticky or not doesn't matter so much. Getting it clear in my head helps me. Some of the other posts and PM's indicates it is a useful exercise for others as well.

    Based on my SG post, I am raising to 1.025 +/- 0.001 as my target. I am lowering my temp to 77-78. I had thought that getting the other parameters right would result in a pH in the 8.1-8.4 range, but I am missing something there. Possibly, I calibratred my sensor low.

    I couldn't have even formed those questions a few weeks ago, so you and the community are certainly helping me.

    Thanks
    M
     
  7. missionsix

    missionsix Super Moderator Staff Member

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    Is your house closed up for the winter? Running a fireplace? Did you cough when you were looking at your tank :hehe: There are many factors that can affect pH in water.
    Here's some reads.... There is a method to the madness.
    http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2002/chem.htm
    A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com
    Reef Aquarium Water Parameters by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com


     
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  9. NASAGeek

    NASAGeek Eyelash Blennie

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    Thanks. I am reading all the links everyone is sending me. I think I'll be able to add Chemistry and Biology degrees by the time I am done. It is starting to make some sense. pH fluctuations are interesting. I noticed mine was up to 8.16 later this evening.

    Seriously, the 'system' of a reef tank is very similar in analogy to a spacecraft. Power System, Environmental Control System, Monitors, THermal Control, Structures. Put a propulsion system on a reef tank and you'd be close. There really are a lot of similarities.

    Thanks for helping me learn.

    M
     
  10. Screwtape

    Screwtape Tonozukai Fairy Wrasse

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    Maybe with enough powerheads on the outside of the tank that will satisfy your propulsion requirement...
     
  11. NASAGeek

    NASAGeek Eyelash Blennie

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    You know that we had fish on STS-107 Columbia... I think they were Japanese Carp... being used on one of the life science experiments.

    M