And here I thought I had 0 nitrates

OP, did we answer the original question? It wouldn't be fair to have this side discussion, if not.

Ill effects is not the same as toxic. A "normal" dose of a medicine can have the ill effect of giving me diarrhea.... too much can kill me. The "normal" dose, even with it's undesireable side-effects, is not at toxic levels.

I get the difference of morbidity and mortality. I'm an ICU nurse.... the first guarantees work, the second means I get to send a nurse home. (joke)

You gotta read what I'm saying though, if you want this to be a good discussion. I never said anything like "if you believe that nitrate causes morbidity at lower levels", I said chronic exposure to high levels.

When I get home, I will indeed look for the references. I have a lot of aquaculture books, so it could take a bit. I would like for you to provide some references as well, that are not primarily about nitrite and not primarily about freshwater.

 

Maybe I should add I would like to see the references to understand what you are saying better.

 

If it causes biological harm, that is a toxic effect. That's just the definition. There is no medical term "Ill-effect" that differs from "toxic-effect". There are certainly varying levels of toxicity though.

QUOTE=Renee@LionfishLair;1453013]You gotta read what I'm saying though, if you want this to be a good discussion. I never said anything like "if you believe that nitrate causes morbidity at lower levels", I said chronic exposure to high levels.[/quote]

I did read and understand what you are saying. Please read what I said though. Apparently far as marine biologists are concerned anyways, there is no "direct" biological mechanism that would cause "ill-effects" other than the one described.
Chronic or acute, high or low dose etc...

QUOTE=Renee@LionfishLair;1453013]
When I get home, I will indeed look for the references. I have a lot of aquaculture books, so it could take a bit. I would like for you to provide some references as well, that are not primarily about nitrite and not primarily about freshwater.[/QUOTE]

two of the three references i provided were primarily about nitrate, not nitrite. To go further, their references pretty much cover everything that is known about nitrate toxicity in marine organisms. I've been through this so many time and discussed it so much, but the answer is always the same.... There is no known direct biological mechanism that would cause harm to marine organisms. I'm happy to be proven wrong though, I've tried to do so much myself but the conclusion is inevitably the same . Again, I'm not saying that there aren't less direct effects, that go along with a high nitrate environment that do though.

 

My understanding of the mechanisms come mostly from the references I already provided as well as other references mostly referenced by them. Also discussion with RHF and others, such as the director of aquaculture systems at the university I went to (was an RA in a zebrafish facility for a few years as an undergrad - i.e. this has been a topic of interest of mine for over a decade and I have no better conclusion than the one I have given).

 

I think we are just dancing in circles here now. I was trying to use laymens terms with term ill effects. We actually call them side effects. But we're kind of looking silly going back and forth in someone else's thread that's not really about this. Start another thread of your own and we can continue the conversation. That's the respectful route.

 

My conclusion is

1) double check the test kit with a salient or elos.
2) if everything is happy and healthy and no algae, don't worry
3) if your inclined to worry anyways, make sure your treatment is not more stressful than the nitrates.

As far as a new thread, unless you have something new, the topic is IMHO a dead end and not particularly interesting. The only reason I would want to discuss is if someone found something new.

 

I would definitely get a third opinion on the test results. If you confirm the 80 nitrates, I would work to locate the cause and eliminate. I wouldn't want the nitrates level to be that high in my aquarium.

 

Yes, I agree with that. An API reading of 80 doesn't mean anything to me though, they always seem to read 0 or else some astronomical number. I'd be surprised if it is actually higher than 20 or so if there is no algae issues.

Nitrate can be an indicator of issues though, as mentioned. fixating on N though doesn't neccsarily solve the problem though. IMO mentality should be to treat the underlying issues, not the nitrates. People often fixate on the N, and ignore the actual problems. You can dump a ton of vodka in the tank and bring N way doesn't, it doesn't mean you've made the tank healthier. The N probably isn't doing much if any harm, excessive bacteria may (BTW I do like vodka dosing in some cases, don't get me wrong, but the point is about moderation ). So may going out and buying every quick snakoil remedy, or starving you livestock etc... We always go on and on about N but ignore the fact that there isn't any evidence that it is actually particularly harmful. I see it is driving across the country to avoid flying, the plane is a heck of a lot safer, but we are brainwashed to think cars are... The reality is N is a lot safer than many remedies i see people resort to for it.

 

Just to clarify, his API test said 0, Sailfert was around 80.

 

Correct

The main point of me starting this thread is to show that how 2 brands of test kits can give wildly different results.

I did ask if I should be worried about my nitrates since my 2 fish seem perfectly healthy and got some good responses which I appreciate.

I will wait for my new reef octo skimmer to break in and sometime this week I will do a large water change