Building DSB in 90 gal tank

I would like to expand on what inwall75 mentioned above. Sand sfting Sea Stars as well as Sleeper Gobies especially require alot of foodstuff in the benthic areas of a tank. They forage for their food while covering alot of ground, and consume quite a bit. This being said, tanks under say 180gallon should not house these as their food source will more than likely become depleted. Also, if your tank is not a mature tank, meaning set-up for more than a year, I would pass on them as well.

 

Ok Ill clear this up. Tyslin was just asking if 3 inches would be good for a DSB. Yes, and No. It depends on what kinda sand you have. With sugar fine you can get away with 3-4 inches and it will work like a DSB. The finer the sand the harder it is for oxygen to get down to the bottom were the anarobic bacteria will live. Fine sand will disapate faster and will have to be replaced every now and then. If you have a SSB your inverts, and some fish will shift the sand keeping it oxygenated. This will help with your ammonia, and nitrite detox. The theory behine a DSB is the anarobic bacteria will live in the bottom were they will get no oxygen, hence the no sand shifters, and will eat nitrates and complet the nitrogen cycle. But all in all if you have a 5-6 inch DSB inverts, and most fish will not disturbe the lower levels in the sand bed, so yes you can put sand shifters. They will help eat poo, and left over food. Inverts are a vital key to a marine tank IMO. The bad part of a DSB is over the years it will trap the left over stuff that didnt get eaten by the inverts and fish. That will rot and make small amounts of H2S gas. That is what the rotten egg smell is in swamps. If that gas escapes to fast it can kill alot of stuff in your tank, and is very toxic to humans too. Give or take what I said, and what has been said and decide what you want to do. A DSB is great if you are willing to take the chance. But they really dont do alot of denutrification. SSB is also great. It will make the tank look more natural than a BB, and will act like live rock and help detox ammonia and nitrite. I think DSB's, tangs, and suppliments get everyone going on every forum . The choise is yours, and I hope we have helped and not scared you, .

Michael

 

Oh wow you guys type fast!!!

 

Let's back up a tiny bit to see if we can make this make a little sense. Nitrification is going on everywhere on your tank that you can see. Bacteria have created a biofilm on your pipes, your glass, your live rock, your sand, your sump, yada, yada, yada. You don't have to do ANYTHING to do to create nitrification. In fact, you can't stop it if you wanted to (after the initial cycle). Run your finger along the inside of your front glass. Feel the slime? YOU BACTERIA MURDERER!!!! Just kidding....that slimy feeling is the bacterial biofilm.

This was already talked about by Coral Reefer a little. The biofilms that bacteria create and live in literally glue a sandbed together and create an impediment to diffusion and advection. Sand stirrers like Nassarius snails, bristleworms, etc. break the bonds of this biofilm while they move around and allow nutrient-rich water into spaces they couldn't normally diffuse into.

 

+that!! Im a bateria murderer too, . IMO a SSB is better for the average size tank. If you have a 700g reef with a 10-12 inch sand bed, youll have enough size that the sand bed mite do some good. It will work like the ocean. But for the smaller tanks, it is just easier to stir the sand every few months, and buy some snails, .

 

Hi,

HI,
My new 1/2 cents, I use all three I have a layer of pvc pipe buried under 5 to 6inches of sand there a layer of nylon screen to prevent inlitrate of sand.
this is under the sand and thats where that anerobic bacteria live in the pieces of 1/4 in pvc I believe they call this a plume.then as you move upward thru the sand there are flatworms, they help break down any fish dung and waste that is burried in the sand , I have a small pile of porouos rock in the center (red lava rock ) this is for the ipods, and pods, I have a small plastice shoe box full of cheto this helps with some of the phos and nitrite reduction , I have a heater and 2 skimmers in the same sump, I have 50 + plus nassirus snails a couple serpant stars and about 20 small costal shrimp, If waste or solids make it too the sump reforgium its every critter for hisself and its gone in like 3mins I sometimes throw a pinch of that flake in the sump to feed the hungry critters so they don't starve, they all hang around the return waiting for any fall out they seem to know when I am going to feed when I shut down the return pump to allow my corals to feed on the phyoto plankton and the frozen pods... the liquid waste is devored by the skimmers.
Its over kill, but my water is clear also have two marine land filter with bio media running 24 seven. My water quality is good and I havent lost any living critters my soft corals are fragging. and this entire system is only been up a few months but seems to be very stable.
Doug
I bought the snails , pods, cheto, shrimp on line for about 1/2 the cost of the LPS ps the snails are laying eggs in teh main tank and theh sump.between the snails and coral I need to add a little trace elements almost daily..Skimmer are hard on that stuff too.

[/IMG]


ps ps Skimmer are needed for the liquid organic to be removed look how hard my two are working due to the heavy load and feeding schedual of my tank.
FRONT VIEW of SUMP after 2nd skiimer added..
[/IMG]

Ever wonder how the local LPS keeps 50 fish in one tank without any killing them , He has fitration and a lot of filtration...

here's my tank after one week running on a established DSb/Reforguim that I moved to this tank it cycled without any real spikes due to the effect of the DSB/ reforguim.
[/IMG]

Same tank after a completed CYCle Coraline going wild and I am able to frag soft corals Nitrite Zero, Ammonia Zero, Phos very low. And this tank is only 1 month old.
I think the DSB Stabilized the water and the skimmers polished the water.
[/IMG]

I am feeding twice a day and haven't lost a fish , Nock on wood.

So the sercret I believe is to have lots of those good aerboic bacteria in canister filters and then have your DSB to burn of the nitrite in the plume with the anerobic bacteria ( anerobes can only live in a anerobic environement with water circultaion will kill anerobes). DEEP sand keeps it anerobic snails and other critters like pods clean the top aerobic sand and the flat worms prevent sand lock down due to aerobic bacteria that produce a type of sugar slime. , and then the little.bit of cheto helps with dissolved phos and assits the nitrite reduction and the skiimer removed the dissolved organics and a little of the trace elements so you must add a lttle strotium, iodine and watch the CA++ . Are you confused. yet.. lets not forget to have a good light must be able to provide white and blue light inlarge quanities.hehe

 

This can be debated and has been for years now. their are so many factors that make up a successful and healthy tank. The sand or lack there of is a minute part of the equilibrium that makes up the stronghold of a healthy tank!
What we need to realize is that if your water parameters are all in check and the filtration is ideal you should have no problem with being successful and benefit your livestock!!!IMO of course... I believe the main #1 problem that we have to be so careful of is the temperature of our water!!! You can have a low calcium level if alkalinity is maintained higher than normal. Alkalinity will fluxuate downward and be sporadic if your pH is too high. if your alkalinity and calcium levels are low check your magnesium level; should be around 1300ppm. Stability of specific gravity is crucial to the importance of reducing stress in inverts, fish, bacteria, plants and microorganisms. Sometimes CO2 is very good sometimes not. Dissolved organic matter in a tank causing the yellowing of your water(gelbstoff) will strongly absord light wavelengths causing bleaching. This is remedied by adding carbon periodically, needing to be careful in doing so as to not shock the corals due to the clearer water>more light now penetrates deeper in your water. Carbon will remove the DOM from the water.
High alkalinity maintains a high pH. A low alkalinity is a greater problem for coral growth than low calcium. High calcium >low alkalinity
Low calcium>high alkalinity
Coralline algae consumes a great deal of calcium, alkalinity and magnesium so these should be dosed/dripped to maintain a steady level of these.
If your tank has a high CO2 level in your tank, pH values will become chronically low(<8.0) despite adequate alkalinity levels. Adding Kalk at night along with acetic acid(vinegar) will help to increase the amount of calcium being introduce into your water by 9% than if you dosed just kalk.
This can go on for ever and ever...one thing works fine only to find out another parameter is difficient.
Just offering other areas within our tanks framework that need attention given to...
Don't get me wrong, this topic on dsb, no sand bed, 15" of sand or 3" of sand at at what size grain and type>aragonite , crushed coral, or sand is pertinent to a reef ecosystem!
Just mentioning other topics that are more crucial to our pride and joy looking like a Mona Lisa picture or a Thomas Kincade Painting!!!
good luck guys and lets see what the guru's have to say!!!

 

LOL!!!

While I prefer SSB's for most tanks as well, DSB's are a necessity for large mantis. Unlike people, when they get full, they stop eating and bury the leftovers.

With all of the above said, this is a pretty good thread IMO where people talked through a number of issues. I'm sure Matt is cringing because I posted some Dr. Ron quotes in this thread. (You're fairly new to 3Reef. The linked thread will point out why me and Dr. Ron don't get along.....I copy his statements and post his inconsistencies). However, please don't allow my issues with Dr. Ron to affect your decision. http://www.3reef.com/forums/sand/bb-vs-dsb-34593.html

My attitude is that if people understand all systems, they can make the best choice for how they want to run their tank.

 

This has been a good discussion. Lots of good points were brought up. I think I'll through my hat in for one final summary:
Sounds like you should NOT do a DSB. Even if they do what they are supposed to, no one will disagree that it is hard to get balanced. ESPECIALLY for a beginner. I would HIGHLY suggest a SSB with good sifting. May I suggest a horseshoe crab again .Let your refugium do the denitrification. It works for me and all of my friends who have refugiums. It's easy to take care of and it works. If you want to add sand at a later date for a DSB, you always can. You may need to move some corals up higher on the rocks, but that will be easy. This is the advice I'd give my friend if he was getting started in reef keeping.

 

Oh no, a DSB is the way to go . This has been fun, alot of karma dished out too, . I like reading through long threads, and getting everyones opinions. This hobbie is so vast, you can learn new things everytime you look in your tank!! Thanks for all the great posts, and to all a good night,

Michael