Ecosystem (Miracle Mud) filtration vs. Berlin

Hello All!

New to the hobby and very excited in beginning the hobby. I have been following the posts for quite a while now while reading and learning about the different filtration methods for reef aquariums.

I have read several books (including Deelbeck and Sprungs "The Reef Aquarium Volume III") which peaked my interest in the Ecosystem Aquarium filtration method by Leng Sy. My readings specifically relating to this method also have supported my belief in the method over Berlin as a more efficient and less maintenance option.

I would like to get a discussion going in this thread to here testimonies regarding this method vs. the conventional Berlin method with protein skimming. Particularly, it would be nice to here form those with long term practical experience in both methods who can offer some sort of comparison.

I am particularly interested in using a combined ecosystem method with a protein skimming only done at night (Ecosystem Pro filter model).

I apologize for the long post; I wanted to introduce myself and highlight the fact that I am still in the planning stages and I feel the method of filtration is the most significant decision which provides the basis on how a reef tank is setup.

Any and all opinions are welcome (dont worry about being scientific as I am an engineer) and I hope we can begin to put a nice comparison together between the two methods above. I think this would be helpful for a lot of people (especially newbies). Maybe if the post turns out successful we can make it sticky?

Thanks to all,

Jeff Simeone
Toronto, Canada

 

Don't know what mine is called, but it works for me. LR and protein skimming 24/7. Two inch sand bed. I have a 12x12 inch fuge with mineral mud as the substrate. Honestly I cannot see the benefit of turning off the skimmer. Ever. Unless you have a skimmer that is rated for 1000g operating on a 55g tank.

 

most people do both, but we call them refugiums.
a good skimmer will remove a unbelievable amount of waste. basically if you could caught all the urine and feces out of the tank you would end up with skimmate.

usually with just a skimmer you will end up with some nitrates. the refugium would remove this.

a plant only filtration system would be effective too, i dont have expierence on a plant only filtration tank(beside maybe a nano). but plant filtration has been done before in various different ways. I believe you would need a pretty large fuge for it to be your only filtration system safely. most refugiums have deepsandbeds. which is what the mud provides only in a more compact package(along with some plant minerals to speed growth).

im willing to go out on a limb here and say that a protein skimmer would be much better for heavier stocked tanks.

as far as maitenence there about the same, one you take skimmate out and through it away. the other you take plants out and dispose of them someway.

edit: may i add that since plant filtration and sandbed filters have been around along time, for skimmers to be a mainstay in the hobby, with plant and bed filtration as compliments to it. i think its says something about the more effective filtration if you catch my drift

 

Interesting. So in terms of the skimmer rated capacity that would be required when combining with plant and bed filtration, would it be suffice to say that an "oversized skimmer" is not required.

I am hearing alot about choosing a skimmer double what the manufacturer says it is rated for (for a reef tank, rather heavy stocking). By combining the effects of plant and bed filtration, we are reducing the filtration dependency of the skimmer?

For example, my tank is 180g. I want to use bed filtration and chaeto/caulerpa plant filtration in a refugium. I am looking at an Octopus Extreme 250 or 300 to combine with it. Would I be able to safely use the Extreme 200 (or if they had a 180 model)? This is assuming a reef tank, that would be eventually heavy stocked. Lets assume also we go with PharmJohn and keep the skimmer operating 100% of the time.

Now that I think of it, the size of bed filtration and amount of chaeto/caulerpa would affect this as well right? More bed/plants, more reduction of waste/nitrates?

I am enjoying talking to you both...

 

PharmJohn,

Is mineral mud a commercial product, or are we talking kitty litter (clay based).

I have heard people using DSBs in the refugium with plant filtration. If I went this route, would I be adding sand sifting creatures and snails with the DSB to keep things stirred up?

My display tank will not have a DSB, just an SB with gobies.

It sounds like this is turning into not an Ecosystem aquarium with a protein skimmer, but a Berlin system with an added refugium.

Or a Berlin system with a Jaubert sump..heheh...

 

yes they would all effect each other, but keepin mind too much is better then too little.

most tanks use the next biggest sized up skimmer with a fuge being 10% of the display tanks size.

if you did a regular sized skimmer i would expect atleast a 20% size fuge to be safe since you heavily stocking. keeping mind the shallower the better since its all about light contact(a plant shaded by a higher one wont grow as fast)

edit: i also wanted to add that keep in mind just because the ocean does it one way, it doesnt make it good for your tank. after all you have a glass box filled with water in your room not the ocean. unlike the ocean most deepsandbeds need to be replaced eventually

 

So what about the claim of this "mud" that it releases trace elements like strontium and magnesium therefore eliminating the need to replenish these until the "mud" is replenished.

It is claimed that only calcium and buffer must be added weekly (depending on your corals). I like the concept of not having to constantly add these trace elements.

Any merit to this? Do other "muds" other than miracle mud do this? Does kitty litter or mineral mud effectively do the same thing? I assume if a DSB is used, then you would have to add these trace elements.

 

argonite does release some of those elements, but i think thats a very hard claim to back up about not having to dose. since every tanks corals load is different, i would assume they would have to provide you with some sort of chart with how much mud you should use, based on the amount and type of corals you have. i really doubt they give you that. and if it does release copious amounts of these minerals enough that doseing is no longer necessary in heavy coral tanks, theres a chance that to many elements will be release. some of those elements too much is worse then not enough. btw those elements listed arent trace the corals need a fairly large amount.

i could sell you a jetski and tell you could cross a ocean on it, it doesnt mean you(or most people) will make it if you try. thats how big a claim they are making

but i will tell you something that will blow your mind. unless you have a tank stocked full of corals you wont have to dose more the 2 maybe 3 elements, thats with a crappy salt mix. with a good saltmix you may not have to dose at all. so all the replenishing will be done with water changes, and you wont have to worry about overdosing or underdosing. theres a reason you pay all that money for a bucket of salt. its still good to have some of the major test kits like calc just so you can check if the salt is lacking some elements.

also a good rule you will learn is never dose with out testing

 

Thanks everybody for the practical input...it is exactly what I am looking for.

So I have decided to use a DSB in my fuge with macroalgae. Going to go with a skimmer in the sump as well.

One last question. I am going to have a max. 1" sand bed in the main display. What maintenance should I employ on this bed in the DT. Does it need to be siphoned or is there enough depth to have sand sifters to take care of stirring it up?

 

some people buy sand shifting gobies or sand starfish.
starfish need quite a large tank to actually live around 70 gallons for one. but i dont recommend them, the starfish and gobies actually eat all the micro flora and fuana in the sandbed. and actually detriment the sandbed in the long run.

a goby would be more sustaniable because it can eat other food you give it, and move more sand then a starfish(as long as its not bullied into a corner)