Kalk dripping & white vinergar low down plz

We all know people will indeed use the community as thier "biological search engine" and I'm no exception...

So here I am shamlessly requesting info & esp. links on the kalwasser & vinergar thing...

is it real? could it be true? help this lazy reefer to the promised land...
I've done the kalkwasser thing as opposed to an A&B thing mostly due to being a combo cheap-arse/lazy sonofagun --- and if vinegar dosing supports that mantra, please advise....

I found this:
kalkwasser

But it wasn't specific enuff for my taste...I need pictures as I'm a victim of a underfunded public education system ;D

ya'll got anymore goodies,threads, links to gleen from this methodology?

 

Here is an article about Kalkwasser that may help: What Your Grandmother Never Told You About Lime

Edit: Here is the Drip system I use. It's simple, cheap and effective. A Simple DIY Kalk Dripper

 

If you have a specific question for the author of that article, you can pm Len. His user name is Leonard.

 

Basically Doctorgori

there is a limit on how much kalk can be dissolved into any given volume of water

its roughly 2 teaspoons per gallon
which gives a solution with a Calcium level of about 800ppm

the addition of 45 mils of white vinegar - increases the solubility of the Kalk
and you can increase to 2.75 teaspoons of Kalk to 1 gallon of water

this then naturally gives a potential Calcium level of 1200 ppm

thus if Kalwasser dosed at the standard rate of 2 teaspoons per gallon
fails to keep up with demand due to either, limited evaporation thus limited delivery
or increased demand due to QTY and type of corals developing in tank

using the Vinegar addition can sometimes be enough to compensate for either of the 2 scenarios mentioned above

as Kalwasser itself has a natural PH of about 12 , the vinegar addition typically does not result in PH issues with the tank ( its best in a slow delivery system anyway so no abrupt changes are caused)

Steve

 

I use this dripper. It works great for me.

 

I have been mixing kalk and vinegar. Steve summarized the numbers well, I would add though, kalk also has about 112 dkh per unit volume. So, you will raise this to about 168dkh. If you are able to keep up with ca and alk demand, without adding vinegar, then there is little reason to do so, as doing so adds significant risks. At this point, I can't keep up with ca and alk demand even with vinegar, although, I do not add a full dose of vinegar yet, as that is more carbon than I need. So, I use this method as well as two part. For me works quite well, however, remember, a few things:

- vinegar is a form of carbon dosing and therefore can crash your tank if you are not careful. This can occur due to a bacterial bloom, which pulls all of the O2 out of the water column, or possibly due to various bacterial byproducts. So, a very good skimmer is required in order to remove bacteria and especially dead or dying bacteria from the water column, add O2 and remove bacterial byproducts.

- Additionally, Kalkwasser, due to the high pH, can crash your tank if not careful. Vinegar, does not actually lower the pH of kalk much at all, because it is so high to begin with. So, adding vinegar will not protect against this.

- Also, due to it's high pH, it can actually cause a reduction, as opposed to an increase in ca and alk, due to a precipitation chain reaction. This can occur too much is dosed, or it is dosed too fast. Basically, small particles precipitate and form calcium carbonate seed crystals, floating in the water column, which grow and can actually pull additional ca and carbonate out of the water column, driving down ca and alkalinity levels to lower than they were to begin with.

I believe Randy in his articles often refers to this a "precipitation event" and the tell tale sign is cloudy water. Unfortunately the tell tale sign for a bacterial bloom is also cloudy water. When mixing the two, kalk and vinegar, there is more risk than using one or the other.

However, even if a precipitation chain reaction does not occur, a pH of over about 8.5, for even a few minutes can cause precipitation. While this may not result in extreme drops in ca and alk, it will make dosing kalk less effective. Dosing too fast or too much tends to cause this, but remember, the systems pH does not have to be over 8.5, this can occur even if one area of the sump is over 8.5. This can occur for example if there is an eddy or current that traps the kalk effluent in one are of the sump, or if the sump turn over is not fast enough for example.

- Finally, adding vinegar again is a form of carbon dosing, so, it will drive bacterial growth. Bacteria will consume O2 and therefore most people, Randy included, recommend dosing vinegar only when the tank lights are on. This is because photosynthesis will help replenish the O2 that the bacteria consumes.

There is a problem when dosing calc with vinegar only during the day, and this is that evaporation will compound and when the system turns on, it will have to add a lot of top-off water quick. This will tend to risk inducing the issues described above. Personally, I dose 24x7, however, my system is a ULN system. So, there isn't much photosynthesis anyways, as photosynthesis is dependent on available nutrients. So, I rely on other means of adding O2.

If your not running a a ULN system, a reverse light cycle fuge can help, however, the bacteria will tend to out compete the macro algae for nutrients, and if nutrient levels are too low, the macro algae will die off. So, supplementation of potassium nitrate may be required for example, which is somewhat counterproductive as one purpose of vinegar dosing is to reduce nitrate levels. However, this still may be useful if one of your goes is to produce bacterioplankton to feed your corals.

So, adding vinegar to kalk, compounds the risks of both and while there may be benefits, is not a magic bullet. I like using it for a few reasons:

- Kalk is less expensive than 2 part and simpler and less expensive than a ca reactor.

- I can dose kalk with a simple aqualifter pump, set to a drip rate using a ball valve, and controlled by an ATO, rather than buying expensive dosing pumps. This limits both the amount and rate at which both kalk and vinegar are added and is very efficient and cost effective.

- I want a simple way to dose carbon. While there are other simple carbon dosing products, such as biopellets, these do not seem to be as effective as vinegar or vodka (although some claim biopellets may be safer, but that's debatable and IMO not true once controlling for the level of nutrient reduction. However, biopellets may be a better option for many as they do limit how much carbon you can dose and therefore limit the risk of overdosing).

- I want to dose carbon as well as kalk and mixing the two simplifies things, is quite effective and cost efficient.

 

HUGE thanks to the well thought out replies...you people are great!!!

Kalk dripping is all I really know...I used to do the 2 part thing on/off but mostly I did a small dripper of kalk into the sump and the reverse cycle caulepera thing...IMHO a continuous read pH meter is a must, but thats just MHO

So this new (to me) vinegar method seemed like a holy grail, but thanks to the above posting9s) I got a better unerstanding (again BIG Thanks!!!)

...I've been toying with the idea of a "poor mans" controller using rigged sprinkler solenoids, rain detectors and a top off jug...big hold up/issue being power failures and incorporating fail safe gadets (I'm a DIY'er but its looking more & more like $500 for a "net controller" from Marine depot)...