Lightning maroon clownfish on ebay

Hey Matt, so as far as breeding goes. Say I have one and I breed it with another clown. Then take the juveniles from that unholy union lol that demonstrate the lightning gene and form a breeding pair. Is that the idea behind epanding the breeding pool?

 

Sorry $20.00

 

lol i meant like $2000.00

 

Well...sort of. There's a couple things going on here, and what I'm sharing stem from my investigations into "conservation" breeding and "genetic preservation" as part of the Banggai Rescue Project's forthcoming book, Banggai Cardinalfish (end shameless plug). Sadly, much of what I wrote for the Conservation Breeding chapter had to be cut (some 20 pages), so I'll simply point to the following:

a) the LVSSP studbook, which includes breeding protocols for genetic maintenance and sets minimum and ideal population sizes for captive preservation of a species.

b) UN FAO documentation regarding genetic maintenance in captive fish populations. There's actually two documents - I wrote about one of them here - Interesting FAO Genetics Document - The Lightning Project

Here's the first problem: Currently, the entirety of all Lightning Maroons are going to be the progeny of a single FO pair. The only other FO PNG Maroon pair on site is not spawning and hasn't spawned yet (I should do a "Double down with them!).

Every FAO document I reviewed suggests that the minimum population bottleneck that can be tolerated and not result in genetic collapse is 5 randomly breeding fish. Since clownfish form pairs, I take that to translate to 3 pairs. That means even though I have two pairs, genetically it is potentially too small a bottleneck. Thankfully, I know that at least one person out there took my advice and purchased F0 PNG White Stripe Maroons for potential mates; I do hope he wins one or more of these fish. There are also PNG white stripes in the UK; Dale Prichard amassed many. I may have to try to import some fish from him or make a trade or something.

OK, so the next problem is size per generation of the overall breeding population. 50 is considered a barebones minimum...but we didn't START with 50. We started with 2. Even if we could get 2 more wild pairs going, the genetic rules are such that with the population bottleneck at 6 fish, you really need 500 produced in that F1 generation....and then all of those need to be interbreeding randomly..which means a lot of white stripe x white stripe pairs.

So really, the model doesn't work, but here's the other side of it - clownfish generation times are like 10-20 years if you spread them out. It means we potentially have centuries before we see any massive genetic problems in a contained captive population....it's not like you hit F2 and every fish has a curved spine and missing operculums.

Still, there IS going to need to be outcrossing to keep Lightning Maroons genetically sound for the long run. It need not happen "immediately", but it will need to happen. If I had the other PNG White Stripe pair producing offspring, I might have created "matched pairs" of all my Lightning offspring with an unrelated fish from the second pairing...that would've been a VERY solid genetic starting point. Consider as well that at this time, there are roughly 30 fish that have been or will be sold, I have 3 holdback pairs of my own, maybe a couple more than that, and 4 pairs have been given away. So for the moment, 50 fish in the F1 generation...plus whatever more I can rear up. Each individual fish, while still sharing the same parents, is still an individual....which means that if I continue to eek out a few fish here and there in the years to come, that 50 could be 500 or 5000...which is plenty diverse although still a rather homogenized group of foundation fish.

So here's what really might need to happen. F1 might really be what we need to consider our "foundation" generation. I can, if nothing else, split up my F0 PNG Maroon White Stripe pair, and pair each fish with a Lightning male. That would create two additional foundation lines of Lightning Maroons that are related, but not direct siblings, of the ones from my F0 Lightning X White Stripe pair. I will probably have to do this in the weeks / months ahead. The upside is that it could go quickly, and I could have both pairs spawning end of this year / early next in a best case scenario.

Meanwhile, everyone else out there working with siblings will be able to conduct their own matings and see what they get. Sharing their results will give us a lot of insight into the expression of the genetics, basically a larger data set. Those people who got FO PNG White Stripes by all means SHOULD use my Lightnings as outcross mates...it's the same thing I'm talking about doing here by splitting up my wild pair. Every outcross pairing that gets set up by another breeder will represent another starting point, resulting in less inbreeding in the total captive population.

Circling all the way back to your initial question, here's how I interpret it. You have one lightning maroon and you breed it with another clownfish, presumably another PNG white stripe maroon. I suspect (but do not know) that you'll get 50/50 white stripe / lightning, just as I did in my F0 Pairing.

Your next mating, of two lightning F1 offspring, would give you a group of F2 offspring. Is there inbreeding going on? Yes. But it's also the very necessary pairing to see what Lightning X Lighting will do. The guys in NY who got the first two are creating this pairing. I have a pair of holdbacks to test this same mating and see what comes of it. This is just ONE of the possible pairings afterall, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with it at this stage in the game.

I'll close with this - I really want to see people keep that PNG provenance clean. That means the best mate is another Maroon with known PNG provenance...which means any of the F0 SEASMART or ECOAQUARIUMS Maroons that came in, or any of the captive bred ones I or others produce from these wild fish. At this time, there are no F0 Wild PNG Maroons on the market...the poeple who got them, got them (and if you have verifiable ones you'd part with, let me know!). This leaves only captive bred PNG maroons...which means either my own F1 offspring, or the offspring from any other breeder who is producing PNG White Stripes (I know of NONE at this time). So effectively, for now, the best mates for my lightning offspring on the market at this time, are their white stripe siblings.

In the absence of that, the next best mate choice is any other wild white stripe Maroon Clownfish. I say this with the understanding that there is unlikely anything geographically distinct about the PNG Maroons that would ever warrant them being considered a unique, new species. So to be candid, my concern about provenance in the Lightning lines is more a matter of setting an example for the other clownfish were provenance may or does matter.

The worst case breeding would be anyone who breeds them to a Gold Stripe Maroon. I'm sorry, but you are NOT going to get a "gold stripe lightning"...that's now how the hybrid of Gold Stripe X White Stripe Maroon turns out. There is no upside here, only the potential to really botch up the Lightning population for everyone else. I say that because I believe that the Gold Stripe may in fact be a separate species of Premnas, due to different aggression / behavior levels, and very different pattern formation and pattern maturity / aging. So while they are not considered distinct species now, I look at fish like A. pacificus and A. barberi and realize that quite easily, that could change in the future. Which means that a cross of Gold Stripe X White Stripe would then be a species hybrid, and that's something that can never be undone. Since it cannot be undone, it means it is paramount to avoid it from a species conservation standpoint. Furthermore, since this "hybrid" is nothing "unique"...and frankly will likely look more or less like a white stripe, it is very possible for the hybrid to be passed off, or mistake for, a pure fish when it isn't. And that fish getting into someone else's well-intentioned breeding would ruin what they're trying to accomplish before they even get started.

Don't even get me started on someone trying to make a Lightning Cocoa Clownfish. (Cocoa is the official name applied to the hybrid of Maroon X Ocellaris)

I hope that gives you a lot to mull over. The bottom line here, at this time, is one of genetic preservation for the Lightning Maroon. It's why sub-standard fish are being released vs. killed. Since there are so few of them, each individual kept alive is one more genetic repository, one more slightly different genetic combination of its parents, and one more hedge against excessive inbreeding that could cause the entire population to collapse. If I had stuck to only "perfect" fish...well..frankly, there might not have been any. Or maybe only a handful at this point. That's far too risky...what if I had a fire or something? So no, given the ultra rare nature of things at this time, diversification of risk trumped culling.

Do I wish this first group had turned out better? Absolutely. But I think this is more about me getting a handle on rearing White Stripe Maroon babies, and not a genetic issue. I eeked them out, but I DO suspect that more experienced Maroon breeders might have gotten more babies or better babies...then again, many breeders suggested that white stripes are horrible for beating on each other...eg. 5 good fish out of 500 raised. If that's the case, as I said somewhere else earlier, that means that a "perfect" Lightning Maroon may be a very rare thing for a LONG time to come.

 

I wonder how many years it will take until these fish get down to like $250 or something.

 

Get write up Matt I feel like I should buy you lunch or something for taking the time.

 

Seriously. I did read the whole thing as well. Very interesting.

And Alex, you still don't get my sense of humor huh? The lowest bid on the stripes was already over $200 when I posted

 

Matt,

Awesome work and great information. Although I doubt you and I could have a true conversation because your intelligence is superior (I have my name on my shirt at work so I don't forget it), I truly enjoyed reading this and the link to the Lightning Project. The passion and knowledge is evident. Good luck in the future and I will be following the project.

Coach

 

Seems like tonight is as good a night as any to bring this thread back from the dead...and I do so for one good reason:



We're about to embark on a whole new journey of genetic discovery!

I'm sure folks are already aware that Sea & Reef took one of my F1 "Lightning" Offspring and has used it as the basis for their own line of Lightnings (which are an outcross to an F0 PNG fish). So we already have a 2nd pair throwing 50% Lightning, 50% White Stripe type more or less as a "F2" for the gene(s)...

This pair above is going to be the first instance of our 2nd genetic test...the results will be interesting.

 

Sweet