opinion on plumbing return configuration and return setup

i have a 75gal tank that has a built-in overflow with 1 1/2" and 1" bulkheads drilled. when i bought the tank i originally did not know what the second bulkhead was for. i naturally used the bigger of the two for the 'drain'. so i have a 1 1/2" plumb job right now on my sump.

in your opinion should i use the second 1" bulkhead for another 'drain'? i cant see the usefulness unless its setup for redundancy but based on some recent reading requires a coast-to-coast setup with 3 returns for optimal redundancy. right now my crappy temporary pump uses a 3/4" hose. im considering using the return pump to also drive an ev-120 skimmer like ive seen some others doing. i intend to have an mp40w in the display tank and im not quite sure where to place the return nozzle(s). the mp40w would be mounted on one side of the tank. lets say for sake of discussion that while looking at the DT from the front the mp40w is on the left. (included an attached FTS) if its on the left facing right would i want a return nozzle on the far right upper corner facing downward toward the center front glass?

i was considering doing two returns piped off of a T fitting. one on the upper right and upper left of the tank facing toward the center to provide cross directional flow. if i did that would the mp40w take care of the rest? im looking for the best way to keep the detritus from building up, plus i want SPS so the mp40w will definitely allow for that.

the ev-120 skimmer has a recommended mag-drive 5 pump. for the return pump i was originally considering a quietone4000 rated at 1017GPH with a shutoff at 10.2'. the mag-drive 5 is rated 500GPH. if i were to plumb in the ev-120 to the return i would need to compensate and go with a 1500GPH pump if i wanted to have 1000GPH dedicated to the return itself right?

so my next question is would a mag-drive 18 for 1800GPH be too overkill for this? mathematically its not overkill. 1800-500(skimmer) = 1300 to the DT divided by two outputs should be around 650GPH per return nozzle. then the mp40w which is rated up to 5000GPH. lets say i ran it at a lower percentage around 3000GPH that would be 1300+3000=4300/75= 57x turnover. when i later add a phosphate reactor and carbon reactor when i get there down the road id be able to reduce some of that 1300GPH to the DT from the return to provide for the reactors and increase the output of the mp40w to cover the turnover rate loss. that mp40w basically grants me the ability to do whatever and with its reefcrest pattern it seems like it'll provide me the ability to have a lovely arrangement of any coral.

im kinda still thinking the project through while writing and its helpful to write out the thoughts sometimes but my thoughts are so scattered lol... anyways i appreciate any opinions on this return setup.

my goal is to minimize the # of pumps required to save space, heat, and power. so having 1 return pump to drive the skimmer and DT would be perfect.

 

I would get a large external pump to run the system. This will keep from adding heat to the water as a submersible pump does. Plus if the pump ever short out it will likely fry what is in the tank.

You need to remember when you are sizing a pump that each and every turn and length of pipe kills gph. You can go with a Reeflo Dart at around 2k gph and dial it down if needed with a valve after the discharge. I would run it all to a manifold for future expansion of reactors, chiller...ect. Never under size a pump, will just cost you more money later when you have to get another one.

 

I think you're on the right track with your return pump thinking although I don't agree in theory with using the return pump for flow unless you have some way of getting good, broad flow from it. Most people use locline which isn't a very efficient use of the electricity you're using for the amount of flow you'll get out of it, really adds a lot of head loss, especially multiple outputs. It will either probably be too broad or too focused to be of much use for good flow in a tank IMO. When I had the nozzle on I couldn't find a good direction to point it without disturbing the sandbed or having it pointing directly at my rocks where coral would just get blasted by it, and I only have maybe 400gph coming out of mine. You could play around with it but I wouldn't depend on it to work if it were me.

Running a manifold off your return pump is a good idea though if you can work out the actual plumbing and have room for it under/behind the tank. Those fittings and tees and elbows can take up space so you need to have a good bit of room for all of that, make sure you dry fit the entire thing of course before starting to glue. I personally would just use the return pump for running skimmers/reactors/chillers etc and then just put enough up to the display for 5-10x turnover of your display.

Using powerheads in the tank will get you the best flow for your money (long term) IMO. If you add up the wattage and the flow you get from them I think you'll see how inefficient using a return pump is for flow in the display tank compared to an in-tank powerhead, it has a lot of head loss to overcome.

I have 1 MP40 on my 75 right now and it's dialed down to maybe 60-70% and it's still moving my sandbed in areas over time but I do have pretty good flow in the tank, there are some places where detritus is collecting though. Of course it will depend on your rockwork and what type of substrate you use etc.

I am adding another MP40 to the other side which I'm hoping will help eliminate some of these collection areas. Either way I think you want good flow from both sides if you can manage it, it will really help to keep detritus suspended and get some flow to all areas of the tank. It doesn't necessarily need to be an MP40 on the other side IME, running a K3 or something on the other side would be fine, it will compete with the MP40 depending on what stage of power it's on and should give you some good random currents.

As for drain/return plumbing, I don't think you need 3 drains to have a good drain system. I think it's overkill personally, to me 3 drains is a level of redundancy that I might consider if I had a massive system but for my 75 it wasn't worth it, especially with the real estate in tank you need for that unless you get a custom overflow etc etc.
Lots of people locally (including me) run the 2 drain herbie with one siphon as the main drain the second as the emergency drain, it is fully redundant so unless you want multiple levels of redundancy I think 3 isn't necessary.
You have to be sure both drains will accept the full flow of your return pump as well, which is also something to think about when determining how much flow you want from your return pump especially since the non-siphon drain can handle less gph than a full siphon can. You also have to figure out how to plumb your return over the top of the tank so it's not just hanging in mid-air, unless you plan to drill another hole for the return. I have a canopy and stand I fastened the plumbing too but that won't work for everyone's situation, it's working great so far though.
One other thing to look for is what the size of the actual holes in the tank are, in mine they were holes to accomodate both 1.5" bulkheads and they just had one bushed down for a 1" return.

Anyway that's my take on it. Sounds like you're doing good though planning it all out, nice work so far.

 

This is just my opinion..... I would double check the sizes of your drilled holes. On my 90g...the standard is 1" drain, and the second hole is to route the return pump through. So 1" drain, and a 3/4" return hole. A 1.5" drain and a 1" return on a 75g seems quite odd. A 1.5" drain alone is HUGE.

So you can run your return through the second bulkhead...but since it sounds like you already plumbed your return over the back, you might as well do a Herbie overflow. Totally silent and no air bubbles. Read my write up in my sig.

For your return.... it really isn't that practical to run tank flow off a return pump. In a closed loop, there is no head loss. With power heads, they just move water. A return pump has to overcome 4 foot of head right off the bat. Second, 1000gph through a sump is quite unecessary. Quite a waste of power. EV skimmers need high pressure pumps to work well. A Mag 5 on a EV-120 is minimum, the recommended pump is a Mag 7. Ran great on mine. So it isn't about GPH, it is about a high pressure pump. You don't need a pressure rated pump, but you do want one with a high cut off. A dart as was mentioned earlier would accomplish that. You could even get by with a Mag 12. But that would probably be cutting it close. A 18 would do it, but if your goal is to cut power and heat a Mag 18 on a 75g is a beast of a pump. Lots of power and heat. But it is what it is. Two mag 7s for return and skimmer would be about the same.

 

having the pump externally would then require me to drill a hole into the side of my 3rd chamber in the sump to pipe that in right? its not optimal for a pump to have to draw the water up through a pvc pipe before pushing it so i couldnt mount the pump above the sump.....*sigh* i should just bite the bullet and remove this small ass sump im trying to make everything fit into and go with a 30 long. im trying to build it in phases with what i have and what i need in the future. so i planned on getting a 30 long later on to better house my equipment. as it stands right now the Ev-120 cant even fit in the sump i have so i was going to have it plumbed in and almost HOB style so its outlet would be draining back into the sump.

Ill check into external pumps, and ill see how hard it would be to drill a hole in the side of my current sump. I dont have the $ on hand right now to buy anything so I have plenty of time to get it all planned out as one mentioned. The sump, and how it got it, is a long story. it was rated for systems upto 200gal, but immediately upon use I can see it was never designed for a real skimmer. So far the ev-120 has the best footprint, and I was going with it because it can be plumbed externally. I wanted a octopus xp 2000 but I dont have the necessary room in the skimmer chamber.

Based on what you're all telling me the 1 1/2" drain is pointless. I was told 1 1/2" drain is capable of 1600GPH drain flow by my LFS. So I went with that and plumbed the whole thing in 1 1/2" ball valves and piping to the sump. I suppose I can reduce that down if I rebuild my sump I can just use 1" and plumb in the second 1" for a backup return using the herbie method.

As for the return plumbing yes it would be PVC up the back of the tank to a T that went to the respective output nozzles.

Im now thinking a 4-way manifold off of the pump. 1 for the return to the nozzles in the DT, 1 for the skimmer (whatever kind of skimmer i wind up using), 1 for future phosphate/carbon, and 1 extra for whatever (water changes, or a calc reactor).

I intend to keep the tank cycling on its current setup with crappy pumps, a crappy skimmer, and a undersized sump. Its more than adequate for the cycling and the 3 damsels in there.

Ill look into the cost of replacing the whole sump with a proper setup so I dont have to replace it in the future. I think a 30gal long would be perfect. It should provide me adequate space for a octo xp 2000, fuge, etc.

Thanks screwtape for the info on the mp40w and how its working in your tank. Ill keep that in mind and buy the mp40w and leave the koralia 1 i have for a dead spot. If I have to I will pickup more koralias to supplement when money permits.

I also noobishly ran my 1 1/2" pvc and glued it all in place like a normal plumb job.... then realized the beautiful art of true-unions. so all the plumbing is getting replaced regardless.

How much would a 30long run me? I can just pull the 6 glass baffles out of the current sump to use in there, and use plexi glass for the other baffles I need (i have a huge stock of solid black plexi).

Ill check out external pumps. Its either the Iwaki, or reeflo at first glance.

someone mentioned closed loop system, id love to but the tanks not drilled for that.

also the tank was made by glass-cages.com if anyone wsa curious why they put a 1 1/2" and 1" drain in the overflow feel free to ask them its a starphire display tank that i got from them. 48x18x21

 

Well then that makes more sense. A 1.5" drain on a simi custom tank is overkill, but not ridiculous. I mean if it is going to be drilled, then make it plenty.

If you are going to look at external pumps, then just know there are air cooled and water cooled. Most external pumps are still cooled by internal passages and do not save that much heat. If you get an air cooled one....then that saves a ton of heat......but not if you have to run heaters to keep your temp up. Then all that pump heat truly is wated to the air. I did a bunch of work getting rid of as much pump as aI could and it made a huge difference. I don't have to run my chiller anymore. But now in the winter I need a 400w heater and a 300w heater helping it to keep my temp up. So just keep that in mind.

Don't sweat the EV-120. I don't care for spray injection skimmers just because they are power hungry, but seriously, it's a good skimmer and on a 75g it will do great. You could do much much worse. Actually, I think a XP 2000 would be too big, and you would have inconsistent performance. Get the 2000 or similar if you are also going to be getting a bigger tank soon. SWC is comming out with a smaller 120 cone that might be perfect for you. It's new so I don't know much about it yet... but keep your eyes open.

When you do your Herbie... you are actually set up really good. Most "standard tanks" have the 1" and 3/4" and you CAN max them out. You have plenty of drain and the 1" emergency drain will handle a lot. So when you set it up you will be golden for all the drain you need. Also... you MUST use a gate valve for the main drain. A ball will give you nothing but head aches. You can't get gate valves from most places. Yuo will have to order one. So plan for that. I got mine on line at U.S. plastics... but there are others... Ace hardware can order them.

 

Just wanted to clarify one thing. Only the EV120 will need a feed off your return pump. If you get the XP2000 it will have it's own feed pump. You can't use a feed off the return pump because it requires a pump with a venturi on it. Maybe you knew that but just wanted to be sure because it sounded like you might be setting up the manifold for the skimmer regardless of which one you got.

 

Cool

Yeah, I did know about the difference that the xp2000 has its own pump just like many of those style skimmers. I was just saying that originally I had spec'd the xp2000 based on some reviews ive seen on 3reef. If I were to get a 30long and use spray injection I would probably go with the EV-180. After some quick research right now instead of the xp2000 I would go with the Vertex IN-100. I forgot, originally I thought I needed a bigger skimmer for some reason than one rated for ~75-100GAL. Based on some information I read the other day thats not the case so I dont need a xp2000 or a EV-180. The Vertex IN-100 looks good to me if I get a new sump.

I noticed that my home-depot sucks for plumbing parts in this field. I will be purchasing all my plumbing online (with exception to the pvc piping itself). I will have to read more into the herbie system.

Yes the ball-valve I have on my drain sucks. I looked that one up right away and saw the error in my ways. In my opinion I should use gates everywhere I would need a ball-valve, but its costly. They just provide such better flow control.

So a friend of mine that was originally going to sell me his AGA 40gal long awhile back is now going to finally do it.

Should I use a 40L for the sump/fuge? In my opinion, I have the room for it, why not? Pretty much gives me the ability to put a sizeable refuge, or two different kinds of fuges lol. one DSB compartment and one mud compartment, sump compartment... hrmm the possibilities...

 

Use the biggest sump you can fit basically IMO. Also, I wouldn't use gate valves on EVERYthing, it depends what the purpose of the valve is. If it's to control water flow then gate valves are the best bet if you need precise control, if you just want to be able to shut off flow all together (like for maintenance of a piece of plumbing), then ball valves are better because they don't take an hour to open and close all the way.

I used a combination of them in my plumbing, pretty much one of each on each leg of my plumbing with a couple exceptions.

 

sweeeeet 40 gal long it is! now i have to figure out a baffle design. so many options. i think ill check out melevsreef site on the different sump configs he's done.