Pics...You asked for them ...

Malachi...I really don't think that is going to happen. Although, I work for an aquaculture company and the president of the company still believes in UGF for saltwater aquariums. But he swears by them. Personally I think they are useless and have no business in a SW aquarium. To much detritus can build up underneath them and rot.

Birdlady...I know there are many successfull tanks but I would love to compare their tanks to a tank that is running with a skimmer. I have a good friend over in Tampa that has a 90 with a mud system and his tank is nice but the water quality is poor. There is a lot of debris floating around in the tank so I hooked him up with a skimmer and the tank looked great within the first month. Now he only runs is a few days out of the month but it sure produces a lot when he runs it.

Mike

 

If there's one thing I've learned from this hobby is patience and open-mindedness (just made it up, did it work?) ;D

I've learned to accept that there are exceptions to many rules. And they work great. I've seen tanks that run on sunlight ALONE and they have Great SPS growth. I've seen tanks with 3 different types of angels that are charted and uncompatible. I've seen 10 gal tanks with yellow tangs in them. I own a 20 gal and I salvaged a small yellow tang that was about to have a ride down the ivory express. Some would say it's just not right. Search the forums, I know I've said it in the past. I've gone on my rants.
[smiley=victory.gif] "Save the creatures!" [smiley=victory.gif]

But the bottom line is, if you can keep a fish alive for several years in a tank, you probably did it a favor. Nature does undoubtedly provide the perfect balance for all creatures, including the predators. So who's to say the yellow tang in the 10 gallon that nut has in Fort Lauderdale wouldn't of been fish food or parasite food in the ocean. In that "glass box" a fish, coral, snail, any living creature has a human, guardian-angel looking out for it. And we know it. You're fish gets a spot, and you jump on 3reef, and ask away, and you buy whatever it takes to get him better.

So in my opinion we are also doing a service to nature. GARF says "Save a reef, build your own." I give kudos to MacnReef for the aquacultured SPS, but the fact is that originally at one point or another it was fragged off a real reef in the pacific. And that's fine. So what? So what , Ray has a little algae, my tank is too small, and Matt is too much of a nice guy? We learn to accept.

There are exceptions to every rule. Be open-minded, try something different. Be humble and remember that technology always replaces and makes obsolete. And please let your criticism be informative, and helpful.

 

[quote author=David Guzman Jr link=board=Newbie;num=1102836376;start=15#21 date=12/17/04 at 11:38:17]<br>1. So who's to say the yellow tang in the 10 gallon that nut has in Fort Lauderdale wouldn't of been fish food or parasite food in the ocean.    

2. So in my opinion we are also doing a service to nature.  GARF says "Save a reef, build your own."  I give kudos to MacnReef for the aquacultured SPS, but the fact is that originally at one point or another it was fragged off a real reef in the pacific. And that's fine.  So what?  So what , Ray has a little algae, my tank is too small, and Matt is too much of a nice guy?  We learn to accept.  [/quote]

1. So let it be fish food then, at least its feeding a predator and not your toilette bowl. I only say this to people who don't seem to know what they are doing.

2.Thanx for the kudos! Your right at one point everything in reefs started from the ocean but that doesn't mean that we can't strive to make everything aquacultured. There is a lot of things I don't agree with. Like people keeping nurse sharks in home aquariums...that is rediculous. Keeping a shark in a 300 gallon aquarium give it just about as much room as a tang in a 10. Eventually both will die.

Mike

 

[quote author=David Guzman Jr link=board=Newbie;num=1102836376;start=15#21 date=12/17/04 at 11:38:17]and Matt is too much of a nice guy?  [/quote]

What is that supposed to mean? Was that a shot at me?

Mike

 

;D

Take it as you wish.  The truth is that

1.Matt is too much of a nice guy.

And
2. yes a shark in a 300 gal tank and a tang in a 10 gal will die.  As a  matter of fact a tang in a 300 gal, a shark in the ocean,  you and I (thankfully) will eventually die.  

I'm sorry but I took that yellow tang from the 75 gal it was in.  It's fins were almost completely gone, it had a bleedy beak, and it was barely eating.  Now granted I put it in a 20 gal,  significantly smaller tank.  I feed it veggies daily.  I make sure he's doing alright.   Now he doesn't look as good as Bubbles, but his anal fin is fully restored, and now we're working on his dorsal.  He was in a 75 gal for 1 year, was banged up by a blue tang for 6 months.  I've had him for 2 months.  I think he'd rather be in my 20 gal tank than in the ocean with a banged up fin.

By the way the guy that has the tang in a 10 gal has had it fine for more than a year already.  

THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS TO EVERY RULE.

 

[quote author=David Guzman Jr link=board=Newbie;num=1102836376;start=15#24 date=12/17/04 at 12:20:02] I make sure he's doing alright. [/quote]

How do you know...did you ask him?!?!  You know as a matter fact...small children would be okay to be locked up in their room for years, just throw food in their and something to drink and they will live for many years.  Doesn't mean they are happy....

Mike

 

:

 

Ok glad tosee nothings changed at 3 reef always a fool who knows all and tries to jam down the WHOLE sites throat, advice is still the same go back to RC If i wanted to put up with their garbage i would go there, instead i reside and return here. When did you learn to speak fish? Observation is better the conversation the Tang is recovering hence it is doing better, it will need more space eventually but lets heal it first. This site isnt about throwing down the gauntlet but is about helping each other do our best to enjoy and have further success in this hobby....Sounds like you founs a home at RC why come here anyway? By the way a 6 inch deep sand bed is maintained in the first year how? Animals, interesting, so starving the critter crew while the bed matures isnt cruel but saving a fish from torment in a smaller tank is? Sounds if anyone is running their mouth its the RC lackey.

 

Phil, you are right, my comments belong somewhere else...not here. So I will make sure to bite my tongue and bend back my fingers before I type anymore. Thank you for being so honest. You da man!

Ray...really do a little research on some equipment before you buy. If you would like me to make some suggestions (not on name brands because I understand where you live) but more of which seems to perform better than others. I would love to help you. I was telling some people today that came over about your tank and how awesome it could look. You have a great stand, nice tank and cool looking light (looks like mine ), I think you could have one heck of a reef. Let me know if there is anything I can help with.

TIA, Mike

 

Mike,

Thanks. I had a SW tank years ago when all salt was UGF driven by airstones. The substrate was crushed shell. And it worked. The crushed shell was a great buffer. The locals here in Indonesia use a very course rubble of SPS skeletons about 1-2 inches long and about 5 inches deep over an UGF that they then pump into a sump. On the tanks they maintain they do weekly water changes with NSW and feed a lot of frozen brine shrimp. I prefer the sand look.

Anyway, I was going to do the UGF thing, even after having read Marine Reef Aquarium Handbook (Goldstein), The Successful Reef Aquarium (Knop), The Tropical Marine Fish Survival Manual (Kay), and The Simple Guide to Marine Aquariums (Kurtz) all multiple times over the past 18 months since I started my tour here in Jakarta. All during this time the tank stayed empty. Also during this time I lurked on Reef Central and other locations looking for answers. I finally understood what DSBs were all about. But I was still going to do the crushed shell and USB that I was familiar with from so many years ago. The only difference was I was going to run it with powerheads instead of with airstones.

And this may be where the downfall of UGF came into being, with the advent of the powerhead. It may have simply moved the water too fast through the bed to be effective. Anyway, I had the tools to do the job, just maybe not the way you would have gone about it. But UGF were proven systems, as long as you didn't mind having to tear down a tank maybe everyother year. Not a big deal back then because we did not have reefs.

But I got talked out of it and was assured that what I had would be fine. OH, that did include a Magnum 350 canister too boot. I had checked it out and it pushed air, but after the tank was filled and I put water into the canister, it just would not work. The impeller was hosed. And you are not going to find Magnum systems in Indonesia.
I tried an even older Magnum 330, but that one wouldn't hold water. Not a good thing in a canister.

No big deal, just keep the bio load low and the sponges on the bottom of the powerheads and it should be OK. And everything is fine. If the FPO is up to schedule, I should have the sump in a few days. I could not have fixed the magnums any faster. The APO/FPO is as fast as it is going to be.

So there I was with a tank of LR, LS, NSW, all natural bacters from the ocean just out the front door, a couple of three PHs, 4 LPSs, and old no longer reliable equipment (except for the powerheads). Sometimes, you just do what you gotta do and hope for the best. Based on what I had read in other forums, I was not uncomfortable with the powerheads and the natural set up. But I have been watching it more than I would have a normal not so natural set-up. With that, you know it has to cycle, it takes time, so you might as well just forget about it for a while. Here I had a system riding on the edge of norms that had to adjust to itself. I pampered it, feeding as little as I thought I could get away with to the LPSs and awaited the algae bloom. It did its thing, I wipped the glass, and things are coming around. The water is crystal clear again. I think I posted my chemistry. Looks pretty good. I think it will hang in there till the sump comes.

When the sump gets here, I plan on making up water to fill it so that I have some of the benifits of chemistry, the buffers etc that they add that doesn't come with NSW. I have a 700 gph pump pushing through a 1 inch pipe to return water to the tank. The sump is rated for 200+ gals. The venturi skimmer that comes with it is built in prior to the bioballs. That makes sense to me. It may not be the skimmer you suggest, nor is it the skimmer my LFS sells, but I don't have the dosh to cough up $400 for one of the German skimmers. Oh, and that is without their pump. It is another $250 or so. Skimmers were just coming out when I was doing it ages ago, back in '76. They were airstone driven. And they worked. The venturi is an even better design, or so I have read, so I'm sure I will be happy with it.

How can you help me?

You seem to have some interesting credentials. I would find it helpful if you could relax a bit and bounce some of that education against what may seem to you to be either outdated or complete idiocy. Some temperance may enlighten you to something completely missed by all and we all could then be on the road to discovery.

We are all trying to grow reefs. Some of us have access to farm raised sand, rock, and corals&fish. Some of us don't. That is not the issue here for our little pieces of ocean. May be for saving the big one, but that is a different forum. Here we are simply trying to keep our own. You obviously have a lot to offer. I suggest though that advice is better simply offered, not driven in like a hammer does to a nail.

Cheers,
Ray